Why I believe Coach Cal can't win another NCAA championship

[theruckus33]

Two things I need to admit. I am a huge, huge, Coach Cal hater. I don't like Cal for the same reason many others who visit theshiver don't like him: we believe he is a cheater that just hasn't been caught, yet. That being said, I am not going to pretend that this is an objective post, it's not. The other thing I need to admit, if I am honest, that I was genuinely worried what might come if Cal landed both Nelens and Shabazz, thankfully neither happened. I don't want him to win another championship, and I thought if he was able to recruit these two, he has the best chance in the country. However I started to think about his championship this year, and a question came to mind that overshadows his championship. What if the NBA lock-out never occurred? Let's be honest, the only reason why Jones and Lamb stuck around was concern over the length of the NBA lock-out. If they didn't stick around, I believe, Kentucky's season looks dramatically different. Noel, like Davis appears to be one dimensional, and Davis was able to rely on the sharp-shooting of Lamb with the added rebounds and points of Jones to help bring Kentucky a National Championship. Personally, I don't what Cal did this year is repeatable..........but only time will tell.

[Gypsy]

I definitely think it would have been a different team had the lock-out not happened. Wiltjer isn't terrible but it looked like he could not play defense.

[Hawks4life]

The chances of a lottery keeping 2 first round draft picks in school and getting a great senior and getting a class like AD's along with a guy like AD in a down college bball year is slim to none.

Lets not forget it took a world class cbb team to win him a title in a down year....I'm not sure this team woulda even made the finals in 08. If anything all this does is reaffirm my belief that he's just not that good a coach...he had an entire team full of nba players and 3 lottery picks, thats what it took him to win a title. Any decent D1 coach in the country coulda won a title last year with that team.

[KansasPhog]

If's and But's, I agree on the premise of this thread. I think even the match up with us could have been very different if Ben and Traylor had been elegible or god forbid UNC had been healthy and had beat us to play Kentucky.

[Turn_my_swag_on]

Last year, Lamb probably would've had no chance to be drafted. I think Terrence Jones would've been gone if not for the lockout though.

That said, I've noticed something that Calipari does......people always tend to focus on the one and dones, but he seems to pick up guys also that really aren't draftable yet, but are still solid players.....Lamb and Wiltjer would be prime examples. Also, Darius Miller and DeAndre Liggins. The roles that these guys have played for him cannot be understated, and frankly, if not for Darius and Lamb, they wouldn't be champions right now, and if not for DeAndre Liggins, they aren't a Final Four team last year.

Wiltjer will fill an important role for them going forward, I think as a junior, that kid is going to be really frikkin good. Add to that the influx of incoming McDonald's AA's and the fact is that Kentucky is going to find themselves in the conversation for a title on a consistent basis.

MY hope is that the NCAA posse comes sniffing a little more closely, or that Calipari takes an NBA job, both of which are high possibilities regardless of what propaganda any UK fan might have you believe (sorry Grace and Blue). It would be foolish to think that Calipari would not bolt for the NBA if the right job opened up, ESPECIALLY if the NBA were to start allowing kids to go pro straight out of HS again.

[trashtalker]

I also cannot stand the man,he is a phony f&ck who has cheated everywhere he has been. The only reason he gets all of these one and dones is because he strokes their egos tells them he will get them to the NBA faster than any coach out there.Kudos for Shabazz seeing right through his bullshit.He will bolt to the NBA someday right when he gets wind of the NCAA coming down on him for illeagal recruiting. And believe me it will come.

[BlueOrion]

Originally Posted by trashtalker

I also cannot stand the man,he is a phony f&ck who has cheated everywhere he has been. The only reason he gets all of these one and dones is because he strokes their egos tells them he will get them to the NBA faster than any coach out there.Kudos for Shabazz seeing right through his bullshit.He will bolt to the NBA someday right when he gets wind of the NCAA coming down on him for illeagal recruiting. And believe me it will come.

Irony...thy name is Trashtalker...

[rootin4daHawks]

Sorry, but I have to give credit where credit is due, Cal can coach. The guy took UMass to the final four, not a lot of coaches could have done that. Maybe he is shady, but until I see proof I am not going to call him a cheater. He got a lot of help from WWW, but there is nothing the NCAA can do about that or they would have done something. I don't think they will be contenders next year since Noel is no AD, but they will be in the hunt. I like the guy a lot more than I do Thad Matta, who comes off as a total jerk to me. And there are a lot of coaches that tell recruits everything they want to hear, like K telling Randle he will play the 3. As long as the rules stay the same, I doubt Cal will change the way he recruits. And he is one of the guys that wishes they would make kids stay longer, I imagine he would like to have AD and MKG one more year.

[Crimson Army]

I still think it's more than a coincidence that he's had 2 final four appearances vacated, but there is no denying the guy can coach.

I don't like him, I think he's shady, and to me he's the basketball version of John Gotti, but not a lot of coaches could have molded such a freshman-heavy team into the absolute juggernaut that UK was last year.

[ilegler86]

Originally Posted by Crimson Army

I still think it's more than a coincidence that he's had 2 final four appearances vacated, but there is no denying the guy can coach.

I don't like him, I think he's shady, and to me he's the basketball version of John Gotti, but not a lot of coaches could have molded such a freshman-heavy team into the absolute juggernaut that UK was last year.

He definitely can coach but as you said it's more than coincidence ... Cal won't get in trouble because all he does is let Worldwide Wes do is dirty work for him and turns a blind eye to it... Wes doesn't care because I am sure somewhere, somehow he is getting paid and Cal can continue his run of top notch "amateur" athletes ...

[kujhawk001]

I'm pretty sure that DeAndre Liggins and Darius Miller weren't coach Calipari recruits (thinking that Miller was actually a Gillespie recruit). Overall though I agree with the original posters premise. Calipari can coach, but I'm still not sure his coacing is elite status. When it comes to recruiting the mob boss (John Gotti) is exactly how I've been describing him. He's a cheater, it's just that he's good enough at it that he always has a fall guy (two former coaches have taken hits from the NCAA after being fired by Calipari) or is one person removed from direct ties to a player. Maybe it's hopeful thinking, but I do agree that it was kind of a perfect storm for Kentucky this season. Some of us remember the Fab 5 and everybody thought that was the start of a trend and it never happened. I'm inclined to believe the same thing will happen this time.
The thing is, the NBA GM's are doing nothing to help NCAA basketball or for that matter the NBA game. Guys like Paul Pierce showed up to the league ready to play and now GM's draft a kid like MKG and pay him big money with the hopes that he falls in the 1% mold of Durant or Kobe or that he can be a player by year 3 (just in time for a new contract). Heck, think about what a game changer it would have been to have Xavier Henry playing the small forward at year 3 against MKG year 1. Instead X is finally earning decent bench minutes for the first time in his career in the NBA.

[fplvieyra]

It would take something pretty cataclysmic to change my opinion that Calipari is a skilled cheater and a skilled coach. The important thing about his UK success, however, is that it gives him so much momentum that he probably doesn't have to do anything terribly shady to get the players that will always make his teams primed for a deep tournament run any more. He can just point to his celebrity and bigwig connections, his NBA players, some of which are veritable stars, his Final Fours, and now his championship.

[Jarf70]

I still don't think he's a great coach. He had amazing talent and amazing character this year and was still beatable. I dont feel like they were so dominant. They play in the SEC.

I'll give him props when he has a good team and makes it somewhere. Until then he's just a salesman to me. And I'm not buying what he's selling!

[TROB]

Cal is not a good coach, the fact he needed MKG to make a ridiculous block to save his ass in the NC proves it. Had MKG not come flying through the air on a perfectly designed play by Self, the game is down to 4 and Cal would have shit his pants just like his team, ala 08'

This was his 1 year to do it, like Hawks4Life said, good luck hoping a lottery pick (Jones) stays in schools, your absolute best perimeter player (Lamb) not at least testing the waters and landing all that talent again. It is, what it is, nothing more and nothing less. There is a reason why Cal never won a title before with all those other super squad teams and it all starts and ends with Terrence Jones staying in Lexington, he bolts, UK is finished, Vargas blew and Wiltjer looked like a fish out of water and still does.

[gracetoyou]

Alrighty then! Are you forgetting Cal was ever so close last year to winning a championship with a team not nearly as talented? We lost by one point to UCONN who won the championship. That was really the championship....whoever won that game would inevitably win the championship.

Back to back final fours.

It's not just talent, Cal can flat out coach. Pastner, Drew & Barnes know that it takes more than just having talent. They've had elite talent, very comparable to UK the last few years but to no avail.

Come on guys! Most objective sports analyst have started taking notice & pointing out what a supherb coach Cal is.

Self is great!

[zeebodaclown]

Originally Posted by gracetoyou

Come on guys! Most objective sports analyst have started taking notice & pointing out what a supherb coach Cal is.

I'm going to take the objective side on this one and argue why a "superb" coach wasn't able to stop the one man show that was uconn last year?

Above average? Maybe...Superb? Not yet

[pgittemeier09]

Originally Posted by zeebodaclown

I'm going to take the objective side on this one and argue why a "superb" coach wasn't able to stop the one man show that was uconn last year?

Above average? Maybe...Superb? Not yet

kids get hot, thats all. look at hummel? 20 points in a half against us and kemba is twice the player hummel is

[Mike Peters]

Originally Posted by gracetoyou

It's not just talent, Cal can flat out coach. Pastner, Drew & Barnes know that it takes more than just having talent. They've had elite talent, very comparable to UK the last few years but to no avail.

Comparable talent? Greaseball has had four #1 recruiting classes while at UK and other schools have recruited as equally? Yeah....right.

Let me ask the Kentucky fans who visit this board as to whether they are even concerned with the stigma attached to Cal pertaining to WWW, vacating seasons, rumors of paid recruits, LeBron's association with UK having never played a minute of college BB, Jay-Z in the locker room, did I mention WWW who was carried off the floor at the NC game? Why did that happen? You honestly think ol' World Wide is above board? How about when Cal notified Patrick Patterson he was entering the draft? Classy....... I guess as long as the wins keep coming and the penalties don't, it's all good? The only pride that matters is win totals? Let's see how Cal would have done with a team of no Burger Boys. Guess as long as the Cal status quo is allowed to operate at full capacity, you UK fans will never have to worry about that happening.

[Turn_my_swag_on]

I think Calipari is a really good coach, and I can't stand him. Now, I'm not going to say that he is on par with Coach Self by any means. I think he's far away from that, but still, that doesn't mean he isn't a good coach. Coach Self absolutely earned his stripes this year and has put himself in the elite class.

When I see Calipari take a roster that doesn't include a single McDonald's AA on it, win his league with it and make a deep run in March, then I'll be impressed. In my mind, the fact remains......he's gotten multiple top 10 rated guys in each class since he's been at UK. Can he coach when he DOESN'T have a roster full of NBA talent at his dispose? Nobody knows.......

[KCUKFAN]

Originally Posted by Mike Peters

Let me ask the Kentucky fans who visit this board as to whether they are even concerned with the stigma attached to Cal pertaining to WWW, vacating seasons, rumors of paid recruits, LeBron's association with UK having never played a minute of college BB, Jay-Z in the locker room, did I mention WWW who was carried off the floor at the NC game? Why did that happen? ....

I am not really all that worried. And my reasoning (which i am sure you will disagree with) is this. And before I write, I am not arguing or saying I am right. This is my opinion.

Yes, Cal has had 2 of his final 4s vacated, the NCAA investigated and he was cleared of wrong doing. While I know everyone has their opinions, Camby talking to an agent and Rose's test scores are what they are and if Cal knew, he covered his tracks. But again, no proof so I cannot damn him like others do. However, that has led to EVERYONE making comments about him, fans and enemies alike. Every beat-writer (Pete Thamel in particular) has done their best to dig up dirt on many of the recruits (Bledsoe, Davis, Wall etc) and none of it has come to fruition. No one wants Cal to succeed and if there was something there, in 3 years at UK (with the players he's gotten and the title and 2 FF's), someone would've found something because everyone is looking.

Sandy Bell (UK's compliance officer) was tasked with investigating him to her fullest and due to the Gillispie disaster, she had to do even more justice because Kentucky could ill afford another bed-sh*tting like they did with BCG. Hiring a guy who was dirty would've been horrific for the university. In addition it is known that with Cal will come scrutiny, so she is adamant about her investigation of our recruits (see Bledsoe).

Jay-Z, WWW, LeBron, Drake, all of that is in no-way against any rule. It is playing to what recruits, especially the recruits Cal targets, want. While you and other fan bases might not like it he is simply playing the game. The better the scene for recruits, the better chances at landing them. I am sure this will receive the most scrutiny, however till they outlaw it, then I applaud him for using it to his favor.

As for the rumors of paying recruits... I have never heard of that so I cannot attest to it.

[zeebodaclown]

Originally Posted by pgittemeier09

kids get hot, thats all. look at hummel? 20 points in a half against us and kemba is twice the player hummel is

see, that's the thing though...kemba wasn't hot that game

if I recall correctly, he only went for 17 or 18...merely average or even sub-par for his season

didn't uconn only hit a single 3 and turn it over something like 13 times also?

all I'm saying is, "elite" coaches eat teams alive with defensive statistics like that

[AlecRaenos]

Only an idiot thinks Cal cannot coach.

He's not an elite level coach but he is a good coach. He knows what's important with his teams and he tailors his talent around them. Could Cal have made the Final Four with Kansas' team? Not in my opinion but he could have made a good run and won the conference with this team.

You have to be a good coach to get freshmen to play as a unit and a team like he got that UK team to play. Offensively they are not anything special to watch - just uber talented - but their sets were nothing special. Defensively though they were very strong, not just because of AD. THey were strong everywhere.

Watching UK is not like watching KU. KU basketball is a thing of pure beauty. Beautiful sets in the half court, hard nosed in your face defense with few lapses. It is a joy to watch. UK won because they had more talent and because Calipari did a fantastic job getting those kids to buy into playing defense.

Look at his numbers of his teams over the years. They are consistently top 10 offensive and defensive teams. Talent gets you top 10 offense from a bunch of frosh, COACHING gets you top 10 defense from a bunch of frosh.

[AlecRaenos]

That being said, Coach Cal's way took 20 years to win a championship and there were a variety of reasons for it.

1) It was a down year for hoops in general.
2) He had a good mix of upper classmen and truly phenomenal freshmen in MKG and Anthony Davis.
3) Kansas had no depth.

Any ONE of those things are differnet I dont think UK wins the championship.

JMO.

[shinanigins]

Originally Posted by KCUKFAN

I am not really all that worried. And my reasoning (which i am sure you will disagree with) is this. And before I write, I am not arguing or saying I am right. This is my opinion.

Yes, Cal has had 2 of his final 4s vacated, the NCAA investigated and he was cleared of wrong doing. While I know everyone has their opinions, Camby talking to an agent and Rose's test scores are what they are and if Cal knew, he covered his tracks. But again, no proof so I cannot damn him like others do. However, that has led to EVERYONE making comments about him, fans and enemies alike. Every beat-writer (Pete Thamel in particular) has done their best to dig up dirt on many of the recruits (Bledsoe, Davis, Wall etc) and none of it has come to fruition. No one wants Cal to succeed and if there was something there, in 3 years at UK (with the players he's gotten and the title and 2 FF's), someone would've found something because everyone is looking.

Sandy Bell (UK's compliance officer) was tasked with investigating him to her fullest and due to the Gillispie disaster, she had to do even more justice because Kentucky could ill afford another bed-sh*tting like they did with BCG. Hiring a guy who was dirty would've been horrific for the university. In addition it is known that with Cal will come scrutiny, so she is adamant about her investigation of our recruits (see Bledsoe).

Jay-Z, WWW, LeBron, Drake, all of that is in no-way against any rule. It is playing to what recruits, especially the recruits Cal targets, want. While you and other fan bases might not like it he is simply playing the game. The better the scene for recruits, the better chances at landing them. I am sure this will receive the most scrutiny, however till they outlaw it, then I applaud him for using it to his favor.

As for the rumors of paying recruits... I have never heard of that so I cannot attest to it.

Just because Cal was cleared doesn't mean that the problems of others won't follow him to UK. UK can lose FF's and Titles while Cal stays clean. Not saying I think he is dirty or anything like that. I don't think he has a need at UK to go dirty with players wanting to play in his 'system.'

[A-Rob]

If I could describe how much I don't give a damn about Kentucky, the state, or it's fans you would be appalled